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Running on Jewish Time

Monday, November 21, 2005

Tzadik ben Tzadik

This is going to upset alot of people. So i'll preface it:

I am FFB, all my closest friends are NOT. I grew up in a Ba'al Teshuva home, I will probably marry a Ba'al Teshuva, (am not adverse to dating them at least), I love and profoundly respect anyone who has the courage to walk away from everything they've known for the sake of the right thing.

But then there's this little issue in the parsha(sorry, next week's):

Why was Yitzchak answered and Rivka not? The prayer of a tzadik ben tzadik is greater than a tzadik ben rasha. [rashi, somewhere in the first aliyah]

[roof thuds, as numerous individuals hit it]

but........... where a ba'al teshuva stands and a tzadik gamor can't!1

yes, but a tzadik ben tzadik has a greater challenge, because a tzadik ben rasha can reject everything he gained from his parents, a tzadik ben tzadik has to transcend that. To create his own relationship with G-d indepent of his father's and his own with his father.

1. my question is last parsha, we read that Hashem listened to the voice of the lad (yishmael) rashi says that the prayer of the person himself is 'yafeh' than others for him and will be answered first, but Rivka was praying for herself, and Yitzchak was praying for her but i don't know the answer for that.


  • Yitzchak was praying for himself as well; he was married to her. He was answered FIRST because of his yichus, but she was answered as well. Both Tefillos were necessary to actualize the conception.

    By Blogger EN, at 6:10 PM, November 21, 2005  

  • You sound like my father... I am also FFB (more than 3 generations) and I try unsuccessfully (perpetually, breaking that chain, it’s a good thing for my parents I have siblings jk)to be a baalat teshuva bat tzadik vetzadeket twice a day.

    You may want to take into account that Yitzchak reserves the right as the "Man" of the house to veto Rivka's words and maybe lulei demistifina, she was asking his approval of her prayer (as her Rav/husband)not necessarily sending him to pray but, accepting his authority over her prayers and making him the shaliach.

    Also do not forget that she had twins one tzadik and one rasha it was only Yaakov who made it to Yisrael by being third generation who merited the 12 shvatim (our forefathers) all tzadikim...

    Lastly, maybe the higher the soul the lower they have to go to collect the sparks of kedusha from “G-d forsaken” land with less tests (ex: a person not raised frum but never ate not kosher because since childhood they were vegan) and elevate the mundane only to be brought back up again…

    By Blogger Littleredridinghoodie, at 12:34 PM, November 22, 2005  

  • ouch!

    Kol Hakavod to you that you try to become that, even without all the ba'al teshuva role models.

    but how could Yitzchak VETO a tefillah; it's not adressed to him, not is it some sort of neder with legal ramifications.

    p.s.what is lulei demistifina?

    By Blogger Masmida, at 4:12 PM, November 22, 2005  

  • I am sorry I did not mean to offend you in any way.

    The blessing and curse (Chava) of having a husband/father I guess... the beit din shel matah holds power and Yitzchak was Gevurah that came from Chessed (Avraham)maybe lulei dimistifina (that means with out fear- I have no source I picked it up from cloojew) Maybe Rivka through ruach hakodesh knew that the only way for them to bring Tiferet into the world was if she brings the first korban Mincha by sacrificing her ego and delivering her words to Hashem through her "Gever" who put his neck on the line as a korban, in last weeks parsha.

    She later gave Yaakov (maariv) her two goats to feed yitzchak... Feed for thought...

    By Blogger Littleredridinghoodie, at 4:00 PM, November 23, 2005  

  • Can you please explain to me what are you talking about, it appears like you are having a dialogue with nonsense. What does Yitzchak being answered first have to do with FFB and Ba'al Teshuvah?

    By Blogger EN, at 6:38 PM, November 23, 2005  

  • LRH-

    First of all, you didn't offend me. You were right I took the wrong angle of the idea because I was trying to be more clever than I actually am.

    I'm afraid that I don't entirely understand your post. Part of Chava's curse is that her husband will have the ability to rule over her, but that is the same kind of fact of life as man eating by the sweat of his brow, a curse, and undesirable, and if possible to be avoided. A lot of the ideas they should be teaching guys, [i hope] have to do with not taking advantage of it.

    The interesting thing is that Rivka never asks Yitzchak to daven for her. Its only Rashi who tells us from the language of the pasuk itself that it was HE who was answered and not HER.

    I'm afraid I don't follow your idea but if you could point me toward the source I'll try and look it up.

    try looking at the comments here:


    By Blogger Masmida, at 8:20 PM, November 23, 2005  

  • I am sorry, I was refering to the 10 sefirot... It was an idea I had that I have no source at the moment I can ask around if anyone can lead me to it.

    By Blogger Littleredridinghoodie, at 10:27 PM, November 23, 2005  

  • Well... maybe we can look closely at Rashi's words and understand them in a different light. Rashi doesn't say Yiztchak was answered first bc he was a ztaddik ben ztaddik, rather, he says "aino domeh tefilla shel ztaddik ben ztaddik l ztaddik ben rasha" meaning not that bc he was a ztaddik ben ztaddik he was answered first but for some reason his tefilla is not the same as a ztaddik ben rasha and that lead to greater effectiveness. So u may ask"whats with all the semantics" whether he was answered first bc he was ztaddik ben ztaddik or his tefilla was better bc he was a ztaddik ben ztaddik?? so perhaps we can say the following idea. When Rivka was davening for a child, most of the role models she had in her life up till now were negative.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:14 PM, December 08, 2005  

  • So perhaps her tefillot while asking for a child were asking for a child that would not be like lavan and bi'tuel, negative tefillot, if we can say such a thing. Whereas Yiztchak, his role model was his father Avraham, so his tefilla was something along the lines of "please let it be a child like my father Avraham" a much more positive in tone tefilla. So maybe that was the reason his tefilla was answered first. Have a great shabbos

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:18 PM, December 08, 2005  

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